Creating a Brand That’s Different | Tom Rossi

In today’s fast-paced world, both podcast guests and hosts are competing to gain more attention and traction for their brands, regardless of their nature. It seems that to win, we have to do more and more. But that couldn’t be further from the truth of what helps you stand out. In this episode, Tom Rossi and Alex Sanfilippo explain how they’ve both built podcasting businesses by doing something that’s different than the norm and how it’s caused them both to stand out. Get ready to get more results faster, without doing more!

MORE FROM THIS EPISODE: HTTPS://PODMATCH.COM/EP/379

Chapters

00:00 The Journey of Podcasting and Branding
05:14 Building a Brand on a Solid Foundation
10:41 Staying Focused and In Your Lane
14:47 Providing Clarity in Your Message
17:43 Being Bold and Unapologetic
22:34 Taking Care of Your Audience
23:04 The Human Element in Podcasting
27:04 Consistency and Self-Discipline
31:27 Understanding Your Audience
35:08 Innovating and Implementing
39:29 The Importance of Humility and Giving Back

Takeaways

Everyone is trying to create a brand today.
The podcasting space is noisy and competitive.
Building a brand requires authenticity and clarity.
Staying focused on your core mission is crucial.
Value is key in content creation and branding.
Being bold can set you apart from the competition.
Clarity in messaging leads to better audience engagement.
Taking care of your audience fosters loyalty.
Success leaves clues, but find your unique path.
Your brand should reflect who you truly are. When numbers start flowing, remember the people you're serving.
Getting obsessed with numbers can lead to losing sight of your mission.
Out-serving competitors is a key strategy for success.
Knowing your audience helps in delivering better service.
Consistency and self-discipline are crucial for long-term success.
Recognizing who your audience is makes it easier to serve them.
Avoid following every trend; focus on what works for your audience.
Innovate continuously and don't wait for perfection to release content.
Giving back should start from day one, not when you achieve success.
Humility is essential in recognizing the contributions of others to your success.

MORE FROM THIS EPISODE: HTTPS://PODMATCH.COM/EP/379

Transcript

0:01

You're listening to Podcasting Made Simple. Everyone, welcome back to Podcasting Made Simple. I'm your host, Alex Sanfilippo, and I'm joined today by my close friend, Tom Rossi. Tom, welcome, man. Man, I'm excited to have you back. I wanted to tell you, this is like a full circle thing for me. So years ago, I started a podcast called Creating a Brand. And for anybody checking this out on the Podcasting Made Simple feed, the first 157 episodes will say like you're listening to the Creating a Brand podcast because I just kept my same feed, right? And Tom, we met because of that podcast. It was actually a specific episode. We had a mutual friend on DHH, David Hanlon Hansen. And you emailed me, I was like just a Buzzsprout customer. So customer of Tom's and he's like, Hey, that was a great interview. I'd love to chat with you. Like no idea who this guy is, but I saw like founder of Buzzsprout. I'm like, no way. Yeah. I want to talk to this guy. Right. So we got a call and you're like, man, I've heard a lot of people interview DHH, but never like you did. And we kind of like built a friendship from there. So like this whole thing, like we're talking about like creating a brand that's different today. So it's like funny, like I purposely put the title of my old show in it, right? But like, it's kind of full circle because like we met through that podcast and here we are now kind of really talking about how we've both done something different in the podcasting space, both as hosts and guests and also software providers in the space. So it's kind of cool, man. I was able get a full circle thing for me, just be able to kind of come back and make this happen. Yeah, for sure. All right, man. So what I want to get into first is like the setting the stage first off for the nine points we're going to talk about. What I'm finding right now, like Everyone is out there trying to create a brand, whether you're a podcast guest, podcast host, your show is the brand, your book that you're trying to run is the brand, your coaching service, just getting your reputation grown. Like it's all a brand at the end of the day. Right. And what I'm realizing more than ever is that, man, there's a lot of noise out there. And I think that that's been said online for years. Like it's allowed, like being a creator, doing something online, it is noisy and you have to work super hard, like harder than thereabouts. Got to put in more hours. You got to be everywhere. You got to be all things to all people. And it's just really hard to get any sort of traction. And like that really is like the culture of it. But I know that you and I don't believe that that's what it takes to actually build something that's different that's going to succeed. And so I want to really just set that that foundation before you these nine points. I think maybe the best place for us to start is just give it like a thousand foot overview of of like where we are at as creators ourselves. Right. Like you did something that's different. I something that's different. If you don't mind just like riffing on this point from it here before we get into it. Yeah, I think for us, you know, we got into building software and didn't really think about, I mean, branding, marketing really was an afterthought. Like we want to build something cool. We want to build a cool tool. We want to solve a problem. We want to build something that addresses an issue that people are like, man, this is great. You know, this solves this thing for me. And I think over time you realize you reach the edges of your ability to be able to grow your market. with just that approach. Like you have to engage, you have to get out there. And we started to get into branding and marketing, but the way that we got into branding and marketing was more along the lines of who are you? What's working? Who really are you rather than who do I need to become to fit this space? And maybe that doesn't work for everyone, but for us, that's more of what branding has looked like. And I'm not involved in a lot of the branding and marketing, but I am involved in. Who are we as an organization? Who are we as a company? Why do we do the things that we do? And the answer to that question is never because it looks good on our brand or because we wanna be true to our brand. Our brand is who we are. It's true to who we are, not the other way around. So that's my 10,000 foot view of how we've grown our business and how we kind of think about branding, marketing approach. Yeah, I'll say this about Buzzsprout and Tom, founder of Buzzsprout. Like you guys have done a great job making something that feels different to your point. Like don't get me wrong, like beautiful branding, beautiful like marketing is done. Like it's all really high quality. In the day, it's the culture that you guys have created. And I think for a software to take on a culture, a feel, take something further than what you just said. And that's me is like the definition of a brand is not like your logo, your marketing, your tactics, right? It's more about like, what is the actual What's the feeling that somebody gets when they work with it? And that's one of the things that's always stood out to me about you guys. Like as soon as I found you, I'm like, man, this seems different, you know? Like, and there was no real reasons I didn't know who you guys were. like, something's different about this. And so to quickly share my end, the same thing, like with PodMatch, it's funny to talk about branding and stuff. We didn't even launch with a logo. Like I was like, I don't know if we need that when we start. And like people were like, yo, you guys should make a logo, right? It was just text. It literally just said PodMatch. But I'm like, we gotta see if this works. And the whole idea was we wanted to make something that would help the people that we knew that we could help. And like that is what it was born from. And to this day, it has stayed that way and it's seen a lot of success, which I'm super grateful for. And it's taken on this personality of its own as well. People join it and they're immediately like, wow, I feel like I'm working with a person, not just signing up for another software company. Right. And like, that's what we're going for. And that's how I think that we built something that's different. It's got to be, it's got to some DNA to it. And so that's what I want to talk about today. And this is a good point for us to kind of transition into the nine points that we're just going to go back and forth on here. But the thing is, again, how do we create something that's different? So podcast guests, podcast hosts, whatever it is behind that, right? If it's growing your show, if it's, again, selling more books or getting your name out there more often, like whatever it might be, how do we do something that's different? So we don't have to go into that grind of I need to be online more, I need to more places, I need to do more faster, right? Like instead of giving into that culture, how do you go counterculture and just do something that's different? And so what we're gonna share today, I'll say this, Tom, like I'm kind of putting words in your mouth here, I don't mean to, but like don't. Just do what we've done. The idea is to be inspired to do something different that's unique, that's your own. Right? Don't be like, they did this. Right? Now don't also, don't just do things like I'm doing something different. Cause a lot of people say that I'm like, no, you're doing something that's wrong. Right? There's a reason like Other people are building companies to make a profit. I'm gonna build a company to lose money. Like there's a reason why that's different but in the wrong way, right? And so don't like don't mimic us word like word for word be like, okay I'll do exactly what they did but pull pieces of it and know that success leaves clues, but you're gonna find your own path ultimately. And so with that said, man, let's just dive into this. So like the nine steps for creating a brand that's different. I encourage everyone take notes along the way with this because we're go fast and there's gonna a lot of really high level points here. The very first one is building on the proper foundation. So number one, building on the proper foundation. To me, the way that I describe this or define it, is finding someone you care about and offering a solution to a problem they're struggling with. So someone you care about, their problem, you create this solution. What are your thoughts on this whole idea of building the proper foundation? Yeah, I think that's what I love about software development, right? Is we're using software to solve problems. a lot of times we'll talk about, because we have, the company is higher pixels, we have multiple products. Buzzsprout is just the biggest product that we spend most of our time on. And it was to solve a problem. But we would ask the question, we'd say, well, is this a problem that we can solve? Is this a problem that we can solve with software? If it is, then it's something that we're interested in, you know, possibly building a product around, which podcasting was, right? Like we can make it, we can make it so much easier. for people to be able to start their podcasting and then eventually even keep podcasting as we continue to grow the product. So I think there's a lot of truth to that of being able to, is there a problem that you can solve? You know, one of the things that I think about is for podcasts, guests and hosts specifically, is I hear this term a lot. I wrote it down. It's I'm guesting for me or I'm creating my podcast for me. And in some ways, like I respect that at the same time, like I don't necessarily always believe it. And I don't call people out one on one when I hear this, but I do hear it a lot. And I think it's kind of like, I feel like that's a way that you're playing it safe by saying that like, no, I'm just doing it for me. So doesn't really matter. It's like, okay, well, why is it just not in a notebook then? Like, why is it on the internet? Like you clearly care that somebody else would maybe hear it or impact their lives. So own it. Right. And I think that that's to me, one of the things like the proper foundation is not this idea of like, no, it's just for me. It just looked like fun. It just seemed cool. It's got to go beyond that. It's got to go to another person. And so for you guys, like a software company, you didn't just say, let's just build fun stuff and see what happens. It was like, no, there's somebody here that I care about. Let's see if we can help them. Right. Let's see if we can build something that helps them. And I believe it's the same for anyone getting into podcasting, especially as a host, I'd say. Like, build the show to help somebody. Build the show to solve a problem for somebody else. And I frame it always in terms of value, of like, build something of value. So go back to the way that we would build software as we say, is this a problem that we can solve? And then, is it valuable to solve this problem? There's problems that you can solve that nobody cares about. My wife is convinced she wants me to build a software to track trains because she doesn't want to get stuck by trains. And I'm like, would you pay for that software? She's like, no. I don't want to build it. That's a problem that, you know, there's not enough value. Is it valuable? Yeah, but it's not valuable enough. And I think it's figuring out what is your value that you're providing. And too often, to your point earlier about podcasters and content creators, a lot of times they downplay the value that they provide. And it's like, no, you wouldn't be sharing it. You wouldn't be recording this. You wouldn't have listeners if it wasn't valuable. And so figure out what is the value that you're providing, right? There is something there. With us in software, it's great because I know exactly what that value is. It's whatever they're willing to pay me for. It's harder when you're in this platform that everyone's downloading things for free and so they think it's not valuable because it was free. Well, that's not true. It's valuable. And so you as the creator really have to get to the place of what is the value that I'm bringing and then highlighting that value whenever you can. When you're guesting on a podcast, when you're bringing people on, like, let me highlight the value that I bring and posing the question to your audience, right? I hope you get something out of this. I hope that you're finding this valuable, right? This is why I'm doing it. I'm doing it because I believe It's valuable to you to be able to have this conversation about how your brand can affect your ability to grow your platform. So I think there's something there in terms of value, of building it around what is the value that you provide and then using that as part of your brand. Dude, that is so good. That's pure gold, thank you. Pure gold. Dude, it really is, man. that's the found, like, listen, if we get this one wrong, there's a reason we start with building on the proper foundation, right? Like, you get this part wrong, the rest of these points don't really work very well. So, that's good, though. I I love that. I think that's really solid. Let's take a time and keep on moving here. So, number two, next thing is to stay in your lane. So, staying in your lane is number two. And I think we live in a world, again, like, we're talking about, it's noisy, it's loud, there's shiny objects everywhere. Everyone is just, like, totally down to... what about this? What about that? Right? Like, especially world of AI now, like, man, I know people that used to do one thing and now they're like, and I also develop software, write music, I'm also an author. And there's like a hundred things I'm like, well, just cause you can do it doesn't mean you should. And there's something you said for people to have this self-discipline to stay in their lane. And to me, this is maybe my, like, if I have a superpower, this might be it, is my ability to say no to everything other than what I've said yes to. Thoughts on this point? Absolutely. I don't think about it as staying in your lane as much as being focused of like what you said. It's saying no. What are you saying no to? Because if you're not saying no to good things, if you're if you're if you don't find yourself saying no to good things, well, then you're saying yes to too many things. There's got to be some things that you're like, yeah, I could do that, but I'm not going to do that because I'm focused over here. And whether that's staying in your lane or staying focused, it's this idea of What I'm doing is too important for me to get distracted and go in this other direction, even though this other thing might be good. And maybe in the future I would go that direction. But we see it all the time, especially now with AI. mean, just today, one of our competitors, now somebody became a competitor of ours by just saying, yeah, we also do podcast hosting. And I just laugh because I'm like, you have no idea what's involved in that, right? You're just tacking it on to all these other things that you're already offering. And I'm not. I'm not nervous about that. Why? Well, because I know you've just distracted yourself. So now you used to be good at one thing and now you're gonna be mediocre probably at two things as opposed to, man, I just wanna do one thing really well. And for us, for our products, we're always hyper-focused on how can we do the thing that we've set out to do for both products? How do we help people start podcasting and keep podcasting? Anything that's a distraction from that, we would say no to. Yeah, I feel the same way man. Like what is it? Jack of all trades, master of none. Like I want to be master of one. Right. Yeah. Just like what's the one thing that people know me for? And I can remember there was a time when I first got into this whole podcasting thing and there was so many, so much opportunity. I mean, we're going back. Like I got into it for real in 2018 and back then it was like the land of, there was nothing, land of opportunity. Right. And so I'm like, I can do this, this, this, this. And somebody once asked me like, Alex, I just have one question for you. What do do? Cause I'm really confused. And that was kind of my eye-opening moment. I was like, uh-oh, they're confused. And I couldn't even list everything off in the next 10 minutes. So now people ask me what I do. I only have one answer, right? Founder of PodMatch. And I'll dive into what that is. That is what I do. And if I'm going to tag anything on it, I also help educate through that lens. And that's it. Like I keep it really brief. And I think that there's somebody said to people that will stay focused like that. And think about, we've had these conversations before where you're talking to podcast, tell me about your podcast. Man, it's me and my buds and we just talk about stuff. And you're like, oh okay. It's so broad. Give me something. Give me something that I can get my arms around to understand what it is that you're doing. And so many times in podcasting you'll have where they're just, they're trying to figure it out. And rather than trying one thing to see if it works and then trying another thing to see if it works, they try to do everything at the same time. There's a saying I like to throw around all the time, which is you can't chase two rabbits. You can chase one rabbit and then can chase the other rabbit, but you can't chase them both at the same time. And a lot of times I see that in way that people are creating content. Yeah, and the same is true for podcast guests regularly, not regularly, I'd say once a month we have somebody email in who's using pod match and like, Hey, I'm not getting any good matches. And we'll look at their profile, but we like to their profile first. And we ask, okay, like, why do feel like you're not getting good matches? Like, well, it's like all kinds of podcasts and in their own, like, I'm not sure you're rude, but like in their description in like what they want to talk about, they say, I'll talk about anything with anybody. I'm like, well, the system seems to be doing pretty good. It means you're It's your qualifications perfectly. And they're like, well, I really only want to talk to people that are growing a business from six to seven figures, like a new, like a newer entrepreneur. I'm like, okay, well, let's direct your profile to that one thing. And then I bet, I bet the system will figure that one out real easily. And you'll get on more shows because people are like, I know what this person does. All right. So next up here, this is kind of going right along with that, but it's providing clarity for what you do, providing clarity to me with clarity comes victory. Like if you want to win at something, it has got to be. It's got to be clear. People have to be able to see it and know exactly what it is. And I have a lot of thoughts on this. Tom, what do you got? I mean, I feel like this is a late in life learning of mine is just clarity is important in so many different areas. In leadership, in the way that we lead our teams, like being clear of what are our expectations, clarity in our relationships with our spouse, right? Like expectations and just being able to clearly articulate things. I have to say, I am super blessed and fortunate to have a partner, Kevin, co-founder, who is so good at all the branding stuff, all the marketing stuff and bringing clarity to, oh what is it that we want to communicate? What is it that we really want to be able to say? And he's really, really good at being able to do that. And we just had a summit where we all got together and he was able to articulate in just one or two sentences. He was able to capture so much clarity around what is it that when we say we want to help podcasters start podcasting and keep podcasting, what does that mean? And really... bringing clarity to that. And I think it helps the whole team. It helps the whole organization to be able to have that kind of clarity. Yeah, for us, it's the same thing. And for my podcast as well, like what is it to podcast about podcasting for people who want to get better at their podcasting for how fast, right? The word podcast isn't a lot all of it. But the point is like no one's ever like, so is it for like people on YouTube or is it like, is it for anyone creating? who is it for? Like that question never comes up. And the same with, with Podmatch when I talk about it. Same thing. were like, even at podcast conference, people were like, whoa, think I need to get better at talking about what I do. Like it comes up a lot. Not that like I figured it out. But when you can get those one to two sentences, it means you have extreme clarity on what you do. And for a podcast guest and host, when you've got that level of clarity, you're no longer confusing listeners. They're not like, well, this person does a lot of stuff. Like, let me think I can remember. No, if it's really simple, they're going to say, got it. I know what you do, right? Like, that's very, very simple. And that's what you want. Like, I think it needs to be simple as well. Like, if it's very complex, it's a lot of words, it's hard for anyone else to follow along with it. So. It's so funny because it's like old school, right? We used to call it an elevator pitch. The idea is if you can't articulate it in just a little elevator ride, then you're not gonna be able to communicate it clearly to anyone else. And it's just, it's like we're coming back to that. You need to be able to articulate it in a succinct way. know, one sentence, two sentences. What is the value prop? What is the thing that you're trying to do? What is the thing that is so valuable about the time that you're spending? Being able to articulate that so clear. Yeah, I think we live in a world again like with like there's this mess up for attention and people want to do everything We're like we've turned into Swiss Army knives when people just want one really sharp blade, right? Like be the sharp blade not like the one that can do all the other things. All right number four Being bold and standing up for what you believe in This one is I think really tough for a lot of people like being bold sandwich of believing I actually have struggled before because like I'm naturally a people pleaser So we're like, what if you do this sometimes I've told me like nope I don't do that, you know, like I'm getting better at it I don't know that comes with age, but for me, like I've started getting better at it, maybe caring less, I don't know, or just being very confident when I do. But this idea of being bold, I think is so important. And so like whatever it is that you do, like truly stand for it. Be unapologetic about what you do. Like that's how you say your one line and then you just be quiet. You don't need to explain it if you're bold about it. Like if you believe it, right? Like I help podcasts, guests and hosts connect. Done. Like I don't need to be like, and I do this because and I started a long time ago and it kind of like turned it, know, and um, and well that's kind all I do, right? Like I hear a lot of people fumble in that way. Or when somebody says to you, yeah, but do you also allow me to record my interviews? And you can be bold and say, no, I help podcasters and podcast guests connect. You're able to go back to, no, this is the thing that we do. And going back to what you started with, the idea of being different. That's different, is being bold and being able to say no to those things, to say, no, this is what we're about. That in itself is bold in this culture right now where everybody's trying to do everything. Yeah, that example, I've used that with you before. And the truth is people are like, hey, pod match is cool, but I'm gonna cancel my subscription unless you all start letting me record on the platform as well. And I just tell them like, hey, sorry, like, it's just not gonna be the right fit. And like, I feel good about that. Cause I know who I serve is the people who don't feel that they need me to be the all in one solution. And like, so I love this point. The other thing I wrote on this word, it's like being bold is unapologetic about like what you do, the value you add, you're confident, you're unapologetic with it. And then also your passion shows. So it goes beyond the words on your website. Like that one liner is great. Like figuring that out can really help your brand, your reputation a lot, but being passionate about it and going beyond just the words that people can, again, they can feel it. Like that goes so much further. And Tom, like I'll get, I'll just, like, I'll just give you kudos on this one, man. Anytime I hear you speak at the podcasting conference we go to, like you are passionate about it. Like you want to help people start podcasting, keep podcasting, and you are devoted to making sure that that happens. And it's not just cause I'm like, wow, he said all the right words. Great job. You know, it's like, it's like, Dude, if you don't feel convicted by hearing this guy speak, like, maybe we're not listening to the same guy, right? So I think you all have done a great job with this idea of like, including the passion and what it is that you can feel beyond just what the words say. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I appreciate that. I think there's, you mentioned, you know, your interview with DHH. One of the things that we learned from him was this idea of opinionated software. Like, be bold, have an opinion. Like, you might be wrong. You shouldn't be a jerk about it, but you should have an opinion. Because if you have an opinion, it provides clarity, it provides direction, all the things that we're talking about. The problem is when you're like, no, I'll be anything to anyone. Well, you have no opinion, there's no direction, there's no clarity. And so I think there's a lot there in terms of just being bold by being able to say, these are my opinions about things. That is a good point. And for both podcast guests and hosts, can, I can see that being a struggle. Example, if I'm the host, I bring on a guest, like if you and I don't agree on something, it's like, all right, do I have a little bit of tension here? And then vice versa, same thing. I'm like, I believe in this. And you're like, just won't rock the boat. It's his platform, right? Like I've seen that happen. I've been guilty of it as well. But I'll tell you what my favorite podcast episodes I listened to were the ones where the guests might be like, I don't actually agree with that. And the host goes, okay. Explain then. Right? And and giving both people the opportunity to a stance. As a matter of fact, I can think back to one episode of my show, it was called Creating a Brand. I had somebody on my podcast, it was about habit forming. We agreed on the idea of habit forming. We did not agree about what was a good habit, what was a bad habit. He said something he thought was a good habit. was, or no, so I said something was a good habit. I said it was a bad habit. And he's like, no, I think that's a good habit. I was like, no, I don't agree. And like, it was kind like back and forth. We argued on almost every point, but it was unlike disrespectful, it respectful argument, right? Yes. Or respectful disagreement would be the right way to say it. And after the episode, I was kind of like nervous to post it because I'm like, man, I hope I didn't like look bad or make him look bad because we just didn't see eye to eye on anything other than the fact that having goals is good and here's how you set them. Right. And then to my surprise, I got more emails on that episode than almost any other episode I ever had. But like, it was really cool to hear two opinions to help me form where I stand with this as well versus just two people being like, agree 100 % with everything you just said. Right. Because the reality is, how often does that really happen? And so this is a challenge to the podcast guests and hosts out there. They're checking this out. Be willing to be bold. take your stance and respectfully have a disagreement or something you don't see eye to eye on because that's what helps the listener say, okay, I need to form my own opinion here as well. And so anyway. And it's all connected, right? Everything that we're talking about is all connected because if you're holding back, you believe that there's something that should be said here and it's, I can either say it or not say it. But if you don't say it, then you're not really adding that value that you said you were out to do. You're not really doing the thing that you said, which is, really wanna help people in this area and I'm not helping them if I bite my tongue and I don't say it, right? And so I think it's all related. Yeah. Okay. Number five, keeping it moving here, taking care of who you serve. This is, this might be my favorite point for everybody in Tom. Like I love taking care of people. And like, think that if anyone's in pod match, hopefully that's the very first five you get is that Alex, Alicia, Jesse, the whole team, like we love to take care of people. And so the first thing that I think about is having a devotion to this, like internally saying that like, I'm going to take care of the people that I originally solved this problem for versus just thinking about myself. And I think in many ways, When the numbers start flowing for podcast hosts, right, we see the climb of stats. It takes our mind away from the people we're serving sometimes. And we just say, how do get those numbers to go up faster? Like, how do I get that to keep on climbing at this pace? If you're the guest, it's like, oh, how many shows can I get on? Versus remembering there is one person hearing this, watching this, whatever it is, that needs it, right? And like remembering that like my first job is to take care of that person who I'm serving. I'm really passionate at this point. I know you guys are as well. you lose sight of it, then you're gonna fade out. Because that was originally why you got into it. It was about the person, it was about the, I'm assuming that you had a valuable thing that you wanted to offer to an audience that you thought you could help going back to where we started. And so once you get disconnected from that, I we see it all the time in podcasting where they get obsessed about the numbers and you're like, you're forgetting that those numbers are people. And when you got into it, it was about the message that you were delivering. It wasn't about hitting refresh on your stats. Yeah, one of the things I think that's helped us stand out, I think you guys do the same thing, is internally we just say like, we're gonna out-serve our competitors. Like, we'll get into competition later here, because that is one of our points, but like, we're gonna out-serve. Like, we're gonna help however we can. We're gonna go over and above. Even if these people, if we know it's something we can help, and they still haven't signed up for pod match, and they even say I'm never gonna do it, that's okay. Out of the principle, we are still gonna do our part to help. We are still gonna do our part to serve them. And we just, we're fine. Like, listen, like we've got nothing to hide, we've got nothing to hold back. If we can help, we're going to help. And again, knowing who our people are, right? If a YouTuber comes up and says, like, how do I get better camera gear? I don't know that lane. That's not my lane. I'm like, sorry, I can't help you there, right? But if it's my person, whether they want to work with me or not, that's OK. I'm going to show up and serve my best. Yeah, I think looking for your people. And when you identify that they're not your people, they're not resonating. Like I said, I want to have opinionated software that we believe, for example, I'll give you great example. For Buzzsprout, we want it to be very simple. And when we first started, we wanted to make sure that people didn't have to think about audio encoding and what the bitrate should be and all these kinds of things. And so we automatically do all that stuff. And we, to this day, we have people that get so mad at us. because we do this. They're not our people. If you want to go and set your own bit rates and you want to edit your own audio and you know, if you want to do those things, you're probably not our people. You're probably not looking for the simple solution that we're providing. Like you want to go build your own audio. You probably want to build your own RSS feed. We have people that write in and say, I want to go in and edit my RSS feed. Like you're not, you're not our people. Now that doesn't mean that we don't serve you. It doesn't mean that we don't like and respect you. but we like you and respect you so much that we're gonna be like, hey, you should probably go to a different provider and hear a couple that you might wanna think about that would let you do that. And here's why we don't do that. Here's our opinion about why we do the things that we do. But that's such a more, it's bold, but it's respectful and you're still maintaining your opinions and you're still delivering on value, right? Because the reality is that that person signs up, you're gonna get upset with me. And so I'd rather you go somewhere that you're gonna be happy. I don't know what half those words meant. So what happens is you'll have somebody who's an audio engineer and they're annoyed that we're uh encoding the audio file. And we've made some changes to better accommodate it, but we always want to keep our target audience in mind, which they don't even know what that is. I'm your target audience. No clue what you're talking about. When we first launched Buzzsprout, we had somebody that brought the server down when they uploaded just a massive gigabyte WAV file recording of an audio file, which I hadn't expected because I thought, yeah, they're going to upload MP3s. Well, this person, didn't know. And that's exactly who we want to serve. As somebody who has no idea that they shouldn't upload multiple gigabyte file. So anyways, all that to say, think it's recognizing who your audience is makes it easier. Knowing who your people are makes it easier to be able to serve them. And if they're not your people, you can serve them by helping them find their people, which is, hey, maybe you need to go somewhere else. Yeah, at the end of the day, we all need to remember that our job is to help someone else on their journey of transformation. We find that little piece of that journey that they're on that we help with. And that is our primary focus, right? This is where we help that person with and we keep on moving. Number six, remaining devoted to consistent efforts. This is where I find most people drop off. This is self-discipline. This is where it really comes in. It's this concept of I'm going to stick with it when it's not working, but I know it's the right direction. I might have to pivot a little bit, and I have to move a little bit. I have to wait a little bit longer, right? Like I have to keep on going. This is where most people are like, ah, I tried it for two weeks, man. Didn't work. Right, I gave it my best. I gave it my best. For two weeks, right? And the thing is, the reason that this is such an important point, like, who do you know that's so, like, super successful that hasn't put in more time than they thought they should? Right? If it took two weeks in podcasting as a guest and host to, like, make it, there would be tens of millions of podcasters, right? Like, if it was a two-week thing and you're like, you're there, you're at the top, everyone would do it. That's just not how it works. No one has had those results, right? And everyone wants to look at the one-off outlier. Like don't get me wrong, there's probably a hundred people that have had that happen before. A hundred out of millions. Right? Right. It just showed up right place, right time. And if that ever happens to any of us, be grateful, like be humbled because you really didn't do anything to deserve that. It just means you hit the lottery basically. Right? What it really takes again is remaining devoted to consistent efforts, to continuously going. Tom thoughts on this. Yeah, absolutely. Again, I feel like this is something I'm learning late in life because it applies to all different areas. You think that these big efforts are the things that really pay off, you know, the big swings, whereas it's really the smaller things that you're doing consistently that you just keep doing it. And then you look back after a year, you look back after two years, you're like, look at the impact that this has had, this little thing that I'm doing. But it would be so easy to just not do it because it's a discipline to keep it up. And so I think It's a huge thing in creating a brand, for building a business, for doing a podcast, for enjoying life, is having that element of self-discipline, of forcing yourself to do what you don't want to do to become who you want to be. And that's only going to happen if you put forth the effort. Like you said, if it was easy, then everybody would do it. Like everybody would be happy and everything would be perfect. And it's not. So... yeah. because it would just be a new foundation. Everyone would have to work even harder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To just stand out again. the reality is, mean, having some self-discipline is huge. I once saw a picture somebody sent me, which was great. was like, everyone thinks success is like this linear line. It just is like from here to here. It's just this success line. The reality of success is it looks like this. It's like scribbles over the page, and it'll error, it comes out the other end. And the reality is that's more what it feels like, is it feels that way. And I find that results kick in after consistent effort has happened for a period of time. Like results will follow up, will catch up. But it just, takes time and it takes to sermon as well to know when you need to course correct a little bit. Right. But like that point is just all I to share with people is just hang on, go further than you think that you need to go for longer. Remember who you're serving. It's not just for you. Be willing to endure a little bit of pain. And I find that like you end up creating something the others won't because you're willing to put in the effort that they're not. Yeah, think about course correction. You mentioned course correction, right? We don't wanna keep on doing something just to keep on doing it. For sure. we recognize that discipline, doing something, even though it feel like a grind is still beneficial, but there are opportunities to pivot. And this is something we were talking about the other day of how many people start a podcast and then either the podcast itself totally changes or they launch a second podcast and the second podcast is way... more successful than the first. It's because they learned, because they did do those disciplines, they did do the grind, and then they pivoted and they learned what works. And I think that that's really important for people when they're getting into podcasting. If you go back and you look at whatever your first episode, right, it's gonna be your worst episode. And the earlier episodes are always gonna be the worst episodes. Why? Because I'm getting better all the time. Well, that only, it doesn't happen by accident. It happens because you're disciplined and you're always getting better. And so I don't care if you go back to Joe Rogan or whatever podcaster you choose, you can go back and look at their earlier episodes, they're not gonna be as good. And that should be encouraging to us when we're starting something that we're not gonna be as good. But there is the promise that if we are disciplined and we continue to work at our craft, we're gonna get better. So good, man. All right. Number seven. This is avoiding doing what everyone else is doing. Now again, success leaves clues. So like if there's something we've talked about, you're like, I can't do anything that Tom and Alex talked about. It's got to be different, right? What I'm saying is not like, don't avoid doing what everyone else is doing that's working, but like all the things is what I'm getting at again. And I'm actually gonna give a real life example. One of my wife's friends, I probably shouldn't call her by her real name, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Her name's Ashley and Ashley is a successful realtor and she's part of a like really exclusive brokerage. Well, last year she decided, their big thing is like, you gotta be active on social media. their teams are on like two to four hours a day on social media, doing leads, posting, like all the things, right? And Ashley just decided like, I hate this and I don't actually think it works. And so she deleted all of her social media and she goes into a weekly call. It's like all ladies and the lady who's in charge apparently cusses her out every single week in front of everybody. And it's like, let me tell you how stupid this person is, but guess who the top performing realtor is? Every single month. Not even a close second place. And it's like, hold on now. She's mad at her because she's jealous that she's doing something different and working less and it's working. And that's the reality of it. All successful realtors say you have to have a social presence. You actually don't. She's texting and calling people and it's working better. She's building real relationships versus like, hold on, I can't talk to you, I gotta post again, right? And so like that's just one of many examples. I use social media as example because the reality is the most successful podcasters I know don't use social media at all. Most of them have deleted it. And that's typically my first advice. It's like, oh man, I gotta be on more platforms. I heard that there's this new one called Blue Sky now. I gotta be on it, right? Yes. No, you're probably gonna make worse content, because you're trying to make more things. The reality is if you deleted all that and just worked on building a really, really good show, or your guessing efforts, if you just posted all that in one place where you know your ideal listener is going to be, you're going to do better. And I think that so many of us, just look at, well, everyone else is doing this, so I guess that's what I have to do. And the reality is, it's not true. Yeah. I mean, how many fads have we seen come through podcasting over the years? What was the, what was the online streaming, the live streaming that everybody was jumping on? was before Fireside. Clubhouse? Yes, Clubhouse. During COVID, right? Yeah, right. But there's these fads that come along where it's like, And then you go to a podcasting conference, you talk to podcasters, you're like, you gotta do this, you gotta do this, you gotta do this, because everybody's doing live streaming now, everybody's doing clubhouse, you gotta have a clubhouse account, you gotta have a blue sky, you gotta do this. And it's, I totally resonate with the point that you should ask the question, why? Like, I don't know that I really need to do that. And being true to yourself, like you were talking about with Ashley, I'm not a social media person, that's not where I connect with people. Now, if you are a social media person, maybe social media works for you. But if you're not, be true to who you are. And the idea of being different is not necessarily being different for the sake of being different, but just recognizing I'm not just gonna do something because everybody else is doing it. In fact, in podcasting, a lot of times you can really outperform others who are following every latest fad by not doing that and just focusing on what works for my audience and talking to your audience and asking them and being connected with them I think really helps. Yeah, I'm really passionate about this point and I feel like could both riff on it for a while. I'll just show us about Podmatch. Something we did in 2022 is we decided to go to an all paid platform, no trial or anything like that. And I got beat up about that. Not by Tom, everybody. Tom was very supportive, but by a lot of just different people in the space. like, hey, that's a really stupid decision. Like you're to miss out on a ton of people. And I was like, that's fine. But I think the people I serve are okay with it. And what do know? They are. and it works out really, really well for us. We bring just the right people to the platform and it has been a really cool thing. That to this day is still the number one thing that business coaches, software coaches will email me like, hey, I can make your company bigger, offer a free trial. I'm like, it's okay, it's just not where we're going. It's not where we're going. We decided to do something that's different and it has worked. I can't even describe how well it has worked for us. And again, I'm not telling you, go do it. So if you're like, oh, I have a free option, cut it out. That might be the worst decision you can make. I knew who I served, I knew what... serious podcast guests and hosts are OK with busting out their wallets right away. And I knew that. And so like that was the commitment that we made. But you see that when the stream is all going in one direction and you're like, gosh, seems wrong. Maybe I shouldn't do this. And to your point, maybe that's the reason to consider to do it. It's not just to be different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Number eight. This is innovating and implementing on a continuous basis. So innovating and implementing on a continuous basis. First off, for us podcasters, this is I'm speaking to the host. Do not wait on perfection. Like if you're waiting till your introduction is perfect or you are editing so much that there is just like it might as well be AI. Right. Like it is perfect. Like you're going too far. Like we've got to be willing to innovate and improve on a continuous basis in production. Meaning like we are shipping our creative work. We have it out there to the world. If you're a podcast guest and you're like, well, my empire isn't fully built, so I really shouldn't go on too many shows yet. No, start now. Talk about you building it. Show people the journey, the process. No one relates to the person who's already got everything. They want to hear the journey of it. And I think that like we're software people, right? Like also, also podcasters. But like the point is we don't just wait till things are like, okay, this is, this is a slam dunk every time. Right? No, if we say, you know what, this probably serves people now. Let's get it out there. Let's do it. Like we have a spirit of excellence in what we do. Yes, we take pride in it, of course, but we're not going to hold it back. We want it to continue to go. We want it to continue to help people along the way. You guys have modeled this. think that we learned like I'd say PodMatch learned this from how you guys run your business. So what are your thoughts on this? I think that's such an important point that it should always be getting better. It should always be getting better. And if you, as long as you accept that reality, then you're okay releasing something knowing that it could be better. The problem is if you think, no, no, no, I've got it as good as it can be, well then either you waited too long to release whatever it is that you're doing or you have an unrealistic expectation of what it means to, you know, because it can always be improved. It can always be better. And you just have to get comfortable with it. And whether it's building software, whether it's recording your first episode of your podcast, you have to be uncomfortable with that first release. You should be because your expectation is it's only going to get better after this. I'm only going to be able to do it better the next time. Yeah, we've all seen brands out there, whether it be an individual podcast, a company, they're their releases are so far and few between. They might be really good, but it creates this disconnect of like, hey, you're like knocking on the door. Anyone there? Right? Like some podcasts, they're like, I can only do one episode a month because it takes me 16 hours to edit. Right. It's like, okay, well, maybe your listeners would like more from you. Like what if you do less time editing and do two a month? Right. Like not saying that's the solution here again. Right. But the idea is just, we've got to be willing to show people the journey of how we're growing. even as people love that pod match isn't perfect, I'll be real. People are like, I love seeing where it's come from. Like, especially people that have been with us since the beginning, like I love being able to like know that like I've been part of this journey of it improving and growing. Again, that's a human experience. People love being part of that. It's what makes you different is being willing to do that. and owning it like when it happens. was like, oh yeah, sorry about that. That was a bug. was something, you know. People really appreciate that. I always joke with the support team, with Priscilla and her team, that I will roll out a bug just to get some support interactions because they have such an incredible experience when they ride into our Buzzsprout support team. Like they just, like you said, they just care about people and they just take care of them. And so many people have never experienced that. So I always joke that people are happier if you roll out a bug. they identify the bug and then you fix it, than if you had never had the bug to begin with. Which just seems crazy, but it's true. As long as you handle it correctly. When they identify the bug, you own it, you fix it, and you tell them, hey, thank you so much for reporting it. You know, it's just been fixed. And I just think it's human, it's real, it's on brand, it's all those things, you know, that we wanna be. One of my favorite brands, a really big company, they had a typo in one of their newsletter emails. I read them every day, like religiously. It was like in the title, was like, uh-oh, that's a type. Like they messed up. then like 10 minutes later they sent, hey, oops, sorry. Like, I guess it's a good reminder that we're all human, right? And I never felt more connected to that brand than that moment. it wasn't perfect, it was messy, And if the title had been correct and they hadn't sent that second email, you wouldn't have been as connected with the brand as you were after they made the mistake and the way they corrected it. There's a principle there, right? There's something there for us. That's good, man. All right, this final point here, number nine, this is giving back along the way. I've heard so many people say, I'll do more to give back. And I don't just mean financially, but like I'll use that as my first example. I'll start giving more money to like charities and stuff I believe in when I start making more money. And the truth is, that's a lie. We all know it. If you're making $10 and I ask you to give one, that's easier than saying, hey, make$100,000 and give me 10,000. Like if you think you're gonna become less stingy, it, that's just, there's nowhere. in our lives where that's like the case. Like it's always easier to start that now. And so again, not just about money, your time, the way you serve people, the way you show up, like find a way to give back along the way. Don't say, well, first I need to finish this and then I'll start doing that. No, it's going to get harder, not easier. And the reality is if you don't practice this from day one, you can begin building these bad habits. For us both in the software space, I find a lot of people who start around the same time, I'll say as me, they started seeing some success. I immediately saw pride and greed come in. They had good intentions when they started, but they started doing really well. And then like, I need like, it becomes addictive. I need more. And it's because they lost focus of I'm actually serving somebody else by doing this. And I'm not saying give up all your profit or anything like that, right? But like in some way there needs to be a practice that you put in where you're remembering, I'm doing this for somebody else. I'm remembering that. So when the download numbers increase to a certain point, you're not like, wow, I'm too good to talk to my listeners, right? And we've seen that happen. Some people make it, they're like, ah, man, I won't go to podcasts and conferences. Everyone just wants to talk to me. I'm like, Oh you poor thing. I'm so sorry, And podcast guest, I won't go on that show anymore, I've already, I've achieved too much. You know, it's like, okay, like the second you hit that point, you've already started your descent. You might just not see it yet. Yeah, I think it all goes back to pride. Like there has to be a humility that in whatever success you're experiencing, that there was some element that was outside of your control. There was something that benefited you. And if you're honest, it wasn't all you, right? And if you can get to that place, then it makes it much easier to develop that discipline of being generous and with your time, with your money, with your content. Like it can make that so much easier if you are humble. in recognizing, man, I did a great thing. Like, don't take away. I made an incredible episode. This episode, oh, it's the best episode I've recorded. But the reality is it's been, you know, all this discipline getting me up to this point and the fact that I was guested on this other podcast and doubled my audience. like, there's a humility that comes from, didn't do it all on my own. There was these other people that helped me, that showed me which equipment to buy. And, you know, there's all these different things that... accounted for that squiggly line turning into that success on the other side. And I think there's, if you can identify that, the humility associated with that, if you can get to that place of recognizing the grace that you've received, it makes it so much easier to be able to give back. And you start to look for opportunities. One of my favorite authors is a guy named Brandon Sanderson. And I love, he basically got his breakthrough because another author had passed away, but he'd started a series. And his wife chose Brandon Sanderson to finish his series. Well, next thing you know, he goes from just being an author who had a following to inheriting a series that was already started and massively popular. And so now to this day, you see Brandon Sanderson, who's now massively popular, pulling other authors up with him, right? Where he's highlighting their books, where he's starting series and then letting them finish the series. Like, it's just, it's so, it's such a person who's connected with the humility of the success that they've experienced. And we can do that as podcasters. by going and being on another podcast. Well, I hear it all the time. Well, I won't go on a show if it doesn't have, you know, it has to have at least this number of listeners. Well, man, there was a time when you didn't have that number of listeners, right? I'm not saying you should go on every show, but there is a humility that comes from recognizing that, you know? Man, that's so good. Tom, man, we're at time. I've really enjoyed this day, man. Do have any, like, final thought for us before we get out of here? Thanks for having me. I mean, it's a fun conversation. I love this stuff. Yeah, man, this was great, dude. really, again, you've paved the way in podcasting for PodMatch for me personally, so, and been a great friend of me, so again, thank you for being here and I appreciate everyone for checking this out. This is, it's been fun. This is like a passion thing for both of us we'll talk about. So I hope this was really helpful for you and thanks again for spending this time with us. For more episodes, please visit podmatch.com forward slash episodes. Thank you so much for listening.