Leading the Community Shift in Podcasting | Darrell Vesterfelt

Most podcast hosts and guests feel they must continually create more resources and tools to build their brand. But, there’s a change coming, and that’s no longer reality. The way that people learn has changed forever, and that’s good for podcasters! In this episode, Darrell Vesterfelt and Alex Sanfilippo explain why community-centered learning is the future of online learning and how you can lean into this shift to get better results. Get ready to make your creative endeavors a more meaningful experience!

MORE FROM THIS EPISODE: HTTPS://PODMATCH.COM/EP/368

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Community Learning
02:46 The Evolution of Learning and AI
05:46 Defining Community in the Digital Age
09:06 The Importance of Human Connection
12:01 Transformative Learning Experiences
14:50 Building Engaging Communities
18:02 The Future of Community as a Business Model
20:57 Creating a Successful Community Framework
24:11 Final Thoughts on Community and Learning

Takeaways

Community learning is becoming essential in the digital age.
AI is fundamentally changing how we learn and engage with content.
Defining community involves understanding shared goals and transitions.
Human connection is increasingly valued over digital interactions.
Transformative experiences are key to effective learning.
Building engaging communities requires a focus on connection and interaction.
Community is a sustainable business model for creators.
A successful community framework can be established with just 30 members.
The future of learning lies in collaborative environments rather than solitary consumption.
Creating a community allows for shared experiences and collective growth.

MORE FROM THIS EPISODE: HTTPS://PODMATCH.COM/EP/368

PodMatch has officially launched a podcast network for independent interview-based podcasts! To apply to be part of the network, please visit https://PodMatch.com/network and press the "Join Network" button in the top center of the screen. While you're there, be sure to check out some of the incredible shows in the network!

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Community Learning
• 3:07 The Evolution of Learning and AI
• 6:07 Defining Community in the Digital Age
• 9:27 The Importance of Human Connection
• 12:22 Transformative Learning Experiences
• 15:11 Building Engaging Communities
• 18:23 The Future of Community as a Business Model
• 21:18 Creating a Successful Community Framework
• 24:32 Final Thoughts on Community and Learning

Transcript

0:22

You're listening to Podcasting Made Simple. Hey everyone, Alex Sanfilippo here. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Podcasting Made Simple. Today I am joined by a recent friend of mine, so I recently met Darrell Westervelt and I'm really excited. I had Darrell in PodMatch Elite Mastermind recently and I just like, we were just blown away by what was shared and I was like, I've got to introduce Darrell to our entire community here. So Darrell, welcome. Thank you so much for being here today. Thanks for having me. Man, I'm really excited to talk about this today. So we're going to get into this idea of community learning, like the intersection between those things. And before I do that though, I was looking at a lot of your background and you do a lot of cool stuff. So encourage everyone go take a look at what Daryl does. I'll let you down in your own time, but I'm going to let you talk about a little bit here because what I'm really interested is how you ended up from all these things that you've done, how you ended up deciding that becoming the VP of growth at Mighty Networks was like the thing. So if you don't mind just give us a little bit background and how you ended up and why you ended up where you are today. Yeah. So I started blogging in 2004 and I've been doing it for a long time. And a couple of years into that journey of blogging, I became wildly obsessed with the idea that you could gather attention all over the world from a dorm room in college, which is basically where I was at in 2004. And I remember like I was writing some notes on a WordPress website. And one day I looked at the analytics and I was like, wait, I don't know anybody in South Africa and come to think of it. I don't know anybody in Germany, but like people are reading my content. I just became obsessed with this idea of creating content online could reach people all over the world. So I basically decided that I wanted to dedicate my entire career towards that direction. And I basically did that. Not long after that, a couple of years down the road, I read a book by a guy named Chris Gillebaud called 279 Days to Overnight Success. And I realized that you could actually make an income blogging. And so I just became wildly obsessed. I essentially never had a real job and just worked in the space of blogging for a long, long time. I then started building websites for myself and for other people and I started a little agency. And in the midst of that agency, I was working with authors and bloggers and realized that monetizing an audience was kind of the next big thing for people. And this was, you know, early 2010s and courses. were the way to do that back then in a way that you had control over. So building an email list and courses. And I had the opportunity to work with some really cool authors early on bestselling authors to develop e-learning courses for them, for their audience. And so I did that for a long time. Somewhere in the midst of that, I was also the head of growth at ConvertKit, now Kit, in that period of time as well. And we had a really fun early stage growth story at Kit. Again, just really like. confirming even more that building your own audience, owning your audience with an email list, then monetizing it through e-learning was the way to go. And then from that time, I built a holdings company called Mount Haley, where I was not just building courses for people, we were actually building businesses around audience as well. So I've been doing that for five years now. And the shift of AI has been significant in my mind. I've been thinking about it a lot, but e-learning has been how I built my background for the last 15 years, earning income. And I think that AI is marking a fundamental shift in the way that people are learning and engaging with content online. And so I met Gina about a year and a half ago for Mighty Networks, and I heard her talk about community and the future of community, and it clicked. How I think we're fundamentally changing the way that we learn and engage in content, and her viewpoint on community clicked for me, and I was like, I wanna be on Team Mighty. And so I had an agency that I sold to Mighty Networks in May of this year to come on and be a part of helping grow the mission of Mighty Networks and really helping people transition from like purely just e-learning companies to building subscriptions and community around their audience instead of just building e-learning. So I made a fundamental shift. I'm all in on the future of online business, being around community and gathering people together. and I'm really, really pumped about it. And so now I'm on Team Mighty and really, really excited about what we're doing here. Man, I love this. This is so cool. Like you really are betting on like where the future is heading. And I think that it's a very, I say betting, it's an informed decision, given your background, what you've seen. Like it's not that you haven't been able to call this stuff before, which just reinforces the topic today. Like this is important for us to be getting ahead of. as podcast guests and hosts who are tuning in, checking this out. I'm excited for us to be able to be at this forefront because Daryl, I really feel like what you and Gina and the team at Mighty is doing is you're paving the way, you're paving the future. And so I'm excited about this. I will say for everybody tuning in, we're gonna stay really high level with this stuff. I think this is the important stuff to cover and to learn before you get into the tactful, the technical and stuff like that. But we are going to have... a giveaway at the end from Darryl, which is for everybody. So it's not like limited run or anything like that. It's me nine steps to build a launch, a really successful community that has learning involved in it. So I'm really excited about that. I'll share more about that later, but now I want to transition into talking about some of this stuff and getting like really into it here. And Darryl, I got to confess, man, I struggled with which question to ask. So I'm going to do like a total like no, no, podcasting and ask you two questions in one, cause I couldn't decide, do we start with like learning fundamentally change and we talk more about that or do we start by defining community? And I really loved it when you and the mastermind talking, Vinnie Podestivo, he asked just the question, how do you define online community? And it's funny because you're like, no one's ever asked that before. And I'm like over here, like the host of that, like, why didn't I ask that? It seems very obvious, but I'm going to turn it over to you because I want to talk about these two things. Learning is fundamentally changing, as you said, but also we need to define what community looks like. I don't know if these are the same thing or if you want to answer it separate, but again, a no-no from a podcast host, but I'm going to give it over to you and see where we go with it. I like it. Let's start with how learning is changing. And I want you to remind me what I to Vinny, I feel like I made something on the spot that was really good, but I can't recall it right now. So if you can remind what I said to Vinny, that'd be great. Let's start with fundamentally changing. Like here's the reality. Like this device has completely changed the way that we can engage with it with things like Claude and chat GPT. Most of the people I know who are kind of like native internet users or native like internet folks are no longer using Google. They're using chat GPT or Claude to basically have a relationship with information on the internet in a way that they didn't before. And so e-learning has been a large part of how a subset of the creator world has earned money, which is like, Hey, I know this thing. I'm going to teach you this thing and I'm going to package it in a video format or a written format or an audio format in a way that you can buy this. And then you can learn the thing that I know. Well, guess what? Guess who can teach you that faster? and more accurate and understand your preference in the way of communicating to you and can also get a bunch of different perspectives, not just one person's perspectives. And instead of sitting in front of a screen for an hour or two hours or four hours learning this thing, I can get it in 60 seconds, right? Like that is just fundamentally different than anything before. My daughter, right now I have a six year old daughter and she believes that dad knows everything because I literally can pull open my chat GPT and figure out whatever she's asking me or whatever we're talking about. I can get the answer in 30 seconds. I can ask it follow-up questions. I can really understand a concept really quickly in a way that I couldn't before. And maybe it would have taken me hours to Google it or to watch YouTube videos. And now it's like, AI is basically like this giant context sifting and content processing machine in a way that completely changes the way that I learn. And by the way, it understands how I want to communicate with it. It understands the question that I ask in context over time. And it helps me learn the way that I want to learn the way that I talk in ways that are just fundamentally different. we've started to see, like I work with all kinds of clients as a coach or as a consultant. And in my agency is we were already starting to see a decline in e-learning. And in the conversations I'm in, we're still kind of seeing this decline in e-learning. And I think that it's just a fundamentally different way of engaging in content because I don't want to sit down for two hours and watch your video course anymore. It's just not helpful to me. Now, how this might be shifting is I might want to do it with other people. And that's where it gets exciting. It's like, but that goes back to the idea of community is community, think is the future of this because no longer is sitting down for four hours, learning this thing the way that people want to engage anymore. Cause they can learn in eight minutes or eight seconds engaging with chat GPT in a way that they just couldn't before. You know, the reason that e-learning was important before is because like you could do that on a Google search or you could search a bunch of random videos on YouTube and kind of piece together. And so e-learning really was like the curation of learning in one spot because you could do this on Google before. It wasn't actually fundamentally different, but now with AI, it's like, it's looking at all of the internet in 30 seconds and pulling all of it together in a way that that saves you a lot of time. So that like curation of learning is not the same value that used to be because AI can curate it and feed it to you in like a conversational and relational way that your e-learning courses can't anymore. So I think there's a fundamental shift in that altogether. So that's why I think community is key because in a world where I'm building a relationship with a robot on my phone and we see this rise of bots all over social media and you know, social media like used to be a place where community really gathered, but now it's a place where like, you know, a lot of people roll their eyes. know more people than ever are saying like, I'm not on social anymore. Or like I was talking to a guy who's got like a million plus followers on Twitter. Who's like, I actually removed Twitter from my phone. I only go on twice a week. It's like just that is like, it's all bots. It's all robots. It's all engagement farms. It's all like weird. It's kind of like, it's kind of like junk food community. It's not real community anymore. And so think people are really craving human connection in a way. Like with this shift, there's been like a rise in angst, a rise in speed and people want to like actually find places of real human connection. I think that's where the, people who understand community the best are going to have an opportunity to build businesses that are bringing people together in the future. Uh, it's so good. And when, when we were talking about like defining community, I kind of ended up with, went back and rewatch the replay of that. Cause I was like, okay, how did we do this? Ultimately it came down to this is a set group of like-minded people that want to accomplish a similar result in their life or in their work. And that's kind of like how it was. don't know if you want to add that definition at all, but that was kind of what I summarized from it. Yeah, that's exactly right. It's, it's, uh Seth Godin was on uh a summit that we did earlier this year. And he said the phrase as only Seth can do is people like us do stuff like this. And I think that's what community really is. And what I think is so part of the reasons that I'm a big time team mighty is because the way that Gina talks about this kind of, uh, what community is and the frameworks of this are really important. You know, in business, we've often talked about the idea of a niche, right? So what's your niche? All right. My niche is 35 year old podcasters in the Midwest. It's like, that's kind of weird. Like we're getting into weird psycho, like psycho graphics or demographics. And it's like, that's not really how the world works. And so the idea of like, what does it mean for people like us? What does that, what does that actually mean? And the way that we talk about it is what is the transition that somebody is going through? And I think it's a really interesting way of thinking about it. So if the transition is. I want to become an expert at a thing or I want to learn a thing. want to generate a skill or there's a life transition. I'm becoming a parent or I'm losing a job or I'm a retiring or whatever. Like there's transitions that happen. They're kind of like life stage transitions. And then there's like, you know, one of my favorites is this community that we have on our platform called the slow AF run club and the transition, the people like us, the transition people are going through is I love to run, but I'm not a marathoner. I'm not going to be the guy at the front of the pack. I'm actually the guy at the back of the pack, but I love running. And there needs to be a group of people like us who are like, you know, we're not trying to like get the best split time. like, we're just loving life at the back of the pack. And so he said, I want to create the best party for those at the back of the pack. And so it's transitioned, but then it's not like, you know, people who are at the back of the pack of these running clubs, they're not just all 35 year old white guys in Minnesota. They're also like, moms, they're male and female, they're different races, they're different cultures and backgrounds. And so it's like, when we think about a niche, we're not thinking about like weird demographic or psychographics. We're thinking about like this transition that people are going through. And in that way, it's a way better way of thinking about who our people are, like who is the like us. And I really love that framework of the transition that people are going through versus just like the like age they are or the background they have or how much money they make in a year. It's like, well, it's, it's so much more nuanced and complex than that. And so it's people like us do stuff like this. And the stuff like this is how we think about it is the framework that we give here. Um, Alex is what's the best year ever. So if this person, if we engage with this person now, a year from now, they just had their best year. What does their life look like? And then how does our community create that for them? So that transition that they're walking through, if they are a year from now saying, this was the best year of my life. How do we as the host of that community create that for them? Is that learning? Is that events? Is that conversation? Is that connections to other people? And so building a community where we're fostering that kind of transformation in the midst of that transition is absolutely key to what we're building here. So, but it's not just you coming here and learning something. It's not just you, it's like doing it in the midst of the people like you. And so how I think about this often is there's a reason that Crossfit or people who are vegan or people who are carnivore diet. It's like those are the most insufferable people in the world It's not because they just like are super annoying But it's because a group of people had a real-life Transformation and those people can't help but talk about the transformation that they're in it's like, you know Crossfit changed my life. It makes it made me a healthier person It made me like I used to be this and now I'm this vegan. It's like I used to be overweight or slow and sluggish and now I'm healthy and happy and I've got all energy and vibrancy. Same for the carnivore diet. It's like when you can help foster a transformation for somebody and that best year ever idea in the midst of community, that's where real magic happens. And you create this environment where like people can't help but recruit on your behalf into the community, right? Like I don't think that CrossFit gyms are like giving out rewards to people for talking about CrossFit. I think people are just doing it genuinely because it's like, I'm a part of a group of people who are on this quest together, we're in this transformation and I can't help but talk about it in a way where it's like everybody in my world knows that I'm a part of a CrossFit gym or the new one is like jujitsu guys, right? Like if you know a friend who's into jujitsu, it's like, that's all they talk about. And so I think that's, that's what we're talking about here is like, in the midst of those communities, it's like there is learning, there is connection with others, there is conversation that's happening. All of that happens in like a very beautiful environment. And the people who understand how to host those kinds of environments, I think are gonna be building the most impactful and lucrative online businesses in the next 10 years. You know what? I'm just going to start this today. Everyone here who's hearing this, watching this, however you're consuming it, you know someone who does CrossFit, you know how much they talk about it. Go give them a hug. They probably need a hug. They need a hug. I got a bunch of CrossFit friends and I was like, Alex, come and cross with me. they're like, no, never. But you know, I'm going to give them a hug next time I see them. So they probably need it. Listen, I was thinking about this idea of transformation and I went back to a talk I gave years ago and I said this quote and I actually wrote it down, but I said, the information age is behind us. We've entered the transformation age. The human brain is no longer desiring. information instead it's craving transformative direction from whom it trusts. And I really think that like, like captures the essence of what you're saying here. And if I can just give a quick example of me actually seeing this in action shortly after you came into pod match elite mastermind spoke, Darrell, I went to a podcasting conference, one of the big ones. And I'm always looking at the pulse. Like what is, what is the culture like here? Is this changing? Like what's going on here? And so I talked to as many people as I came. I realized is that the rooms were empty. Not because there wasn't people there, because the hallways were full. People wanted to learn together. They wanted to hash out what they had going on. They wanted to be in a little circle. And it was this, this reminder of some, some speakers said this years ago, I'm blank on who it was, but it's that community is formed in circles, not in rows. And people are now learning in these circles. And I think that there's, when I was looking at that, left saying, you know what, this is changing. Like this big conference is probably not going to be here forever, at least looking the way it does now with sessions happening every 15 minutes. separating everybody they possibly can instead of bringing them together somehow. And so I think this brings up a question, Darrell, that I want to kind of transition into, but how do we get people excited to be in our communities? So like, again, if that's what it is, I think that a lot of people, they're left not excited about it, but how do we create something that's building for the future that people are actually excited to be part of? And Joe Casabona asked this question in Elite Mastermind Bible. want to give him a shout out because I that was a very brilliant question. I'm repeating it here today. Yeah, I think it's really great. I was anti community for a long time as a business model, Alex. I'll just, I'll, I'll start there. I was like, don't do it. You like, it's a hard business model to achieve. Like, and I think the way that people think about community or thought about community for a long time is like a content library. Right? So it's like, what I'm going to do is I'm to create a bunch of content, but I'm going to put it into a platform and then I'm going get people access to that. And then the community is like, all right, now talk about the content that I put in there. Right. And. That is a really hard business model, by the way, because what it does is it sets you up on this treadmill of having to create new content all of the time. And in the world of creators and podcasters, like we play the content game. So that's how we think. It's like, okay, great. Now I've got like keep adding to this library over time. And in this library, like, you know, I've got a little library behind me here, but it's like, I've got to keep adding books to library. Otherwise people are going to leave. And so I've got to keep adding to it and make it valuable. I'd have new content in there. That is a treadmill that leads to burnout. It's a treadmill that leads to like hating the business that you've built. And it's really, really hard to please them. So by the way, I was right about that. That business model is not fun. It is not worth doing. Just go sell a course because they come in one time, they get the content and they can leave. And it requires nothing of you long-term and you're likely not going to burn out from that. I was right about that. But here's the framework of how Gina changed my mind about community. is the framework that we think about here is a host. Okay? So in this world that I just talked about, imagine I'm a host of a party and Alex, I invite you over to my house or my office for a party and I just sit there and I talk at you for three hours and then you leave. You may come out of that and you're like, dang, Darrell's kind of smart. He's got some good things to share. And you might come back a second time, maybe a third time, but probably at some point you'd be like, I've heard everything. There's nothing else for me to hear. And by the way, I might not have anything else to say. Like I've said all the things that I have to say, I've got nothing else. It's not a party that you particularly probably want to come to, right? But Alex, what if I hosted a party and I said, hey, listen, there are gonna be other people at the party just like you. They're going through the exact same thing that you're doing. When you walk in the door, I'm gonna be like, hey, Alex, guys, Alex here. Alex is super cool. Alex does X, Y, and Z. He's got really cool things going on. By the way, Alex, you should meet Randy, Randy's really great. He's doing some of our things to you. So you guys should meet. Hey, by the way, you guys should talk about this thing because you have this thing in common. You should talk about this. and by the way, like, you know, in a little bit, we're going to learn for a little bit. If you guys want to come over here and learn about this thing, we can. You might be like, dude, I want to go to that party because like every time I come, like Darrell makes me feel awesome about myself. He's like introducing me to people that I didn't know before. He's prompting conversations for me to learn in groups of people together and learn how they're doing things, what's going on. I'm getting to learn from all the people who are in the room. And by the way, like I didn't have that party happening at my own house because I was at my own house by itself. But like at Darrell's party, there's these kinds of people. And then like every once in a while there are like really cool learning opportunities where we can actually learn together. Like guests are coming in to talk about a cool thing. Like you might come to that party for like years, right? Like every Friday, Darrell's holding this party. It's like, you're to come back over and over again. And guess what's really cool for Darrell, the host of the party is at nine o'clock he's tired and he wants to go to bed and he's like, great. I've set this party going, I don't actually need to be here. So I can leave and go to bed and the party keeps going on without me because it's not about me. It was about the environment that I've created. And so that's how I think about community. What we think about community is like, we want to host the kind of party that people come to over and over again because they're meeting people just like them. We're prompting conversations for them to have that they wouldn't have in other places. We're creating opportunities for them to learn and to engage at events they wouldn't otherwise be able to. And that's the kind of community that doesn't require you to be the hero of that party over and over again and have to constantly be on this treadmill of creating content over and over again. And that's like, what we're gonna talk about is this nine step community design framework that we've built. Gina's built this framework that is like mind blowing. I've been with the team for now six months and I still, every time I engage with it, it's like, that's the exact way of doing it. It's the exact framework of what it means to host that kind of party or that kind of community. is key, but that's the kind of thing that's real. That's the kind of thing that's long lasting. And what we've learned Alex, is that memberships and communities that are based on content alone, people churn out three times faster than the kind of communities where they're meeting other people, they're connected, they're having conversations. And that learning is still happening, but it's just happening in the context of the bigger party versus just coming in and listening to the hero creator, the hero host just talking and talking and talking and talking. And everybody's winning in that scenario. This reframe again, so key, so important because now instead of saying like I'm the hero, it's the Alex show, right? Like it's no longer that it's like, Hey, I'm the facilitator. I'm the host. I'm the lead connector here. And at the end of the day, we're here for transformation and it helps each of us focus much less on what they get because I see a lot of podcasts, guests and hosts. They're like, cool. I'm going to build out some sort of community. They immediately go to the, uh, I'll just call it the air quotes here, but the, they get. And so here's the 3000 things that are involved if you join this community, instead of it just being really the key like of, Hey, I like this Alex guy, is Darrell guy. And I think that they know other people that I would like to know as well. I would like to be able to be part of that. Do see those people focused too much on that? that, am I right in saying that? And by the way, like when you tell me the 55 courses that you have and the 37 PDFs that you have, that's a ton of work. And so like when you're asking me to sign up for that, it's like, wait, so I've got to do a bunch of work of like, sifting through and sitting down and watching. There's a lot of work to do, right? That's a lot. So it sounds like you're asking me to pay for another part-time job and I'm not super interested in that. And so I like the idea of like, well, we're doing it together, right? So it's like, now I can like find people, I can ask a question and people inside that community are gonna answer my question specifically. And I don't have to sift through your 37 PDFs and your 55 courses to figure out the answer. It's like, I'm just engaging with people who are living it and doing it. at the same time and I get to engage in that way. And that's a way more enticing thing for me where it's like, well, I don't have to sit here and like sift through all of your content to get there. It's like, we think that's the idea, but imagine walking into a library and having to find the content that's useful for me or walking into a group of people who are doing it and living it and going through it as well and asking the question and somebody just gives you the answer. And maybe they walk you to a part of the library where it's like, hey, this actually is an important piece of information. But instead of you like trying to sift through like pulling down book after book after book, trying to figure it out. It's like there's a group of people are like, I've done that before. Let me tell you how I've experienced it. And that is way more valuable than just like, Hey, here's a bunch of information. Hope you figure it out. Good luck. This is a good time to mention that nine step process that you all created to help someone create, design their own community. So, Darrell, again, thank you for making this free for everybody. Like I really appreciate that. I'm looking at the URL right now. It's mighty networks.com slash people magic. Mightynetworks.com slash people magic. Give you nine steps to create a successful community. It gets into some of the stuff we didn't get into today, but knowing this high level stuff, I think is going to set you apart from going into this. Like it's, it's starting off a step ahead. Did I miss anything there, Darrell? Yeah, for sure. It's going to get into like, you know, like the theory of like your ideal member. It's going to get into the transitions that we talked about. It's going to get into the best year ever. The big purpose. That's kind of like the high level stuff, but then it's going to get really into like what you do monthly, weekly. daily inside of the community to really build engagement up. It's going to talk about offers and pricing. So it really hits on all the things. Like when you go through this nine step framework, like you will really kind of click into like what you're trying to build and it will really equip you with the how to. And it would take me probably nine to 10 hours to go through all of that stuff. But we've done it in a bite size way. That's really easy for you to get access to that and kind of see the like boots on the ground, the rubber meets the road version of what this means. again, monthly, weekly, daily from a high level. So. Thank you again for making that available to all of us, man. I really appreciate it. And now just kind of bring this conversation to close. I do want to mention like this like created a paradigm shift in my mind, like talking about this, like thinking about learning, thinking about community, how it's changing. I think that's just such a, it's the future, man. So again, thank you for spending this time with us. And I want to give you the floor one more time because I probably missed something along the way. Can I blow your mind with one more idea here? Let's do it. Yeah. Is this your final thought or is this in addition to that? I think this is the final thought. Okay, let's hear it. Yeah, that's what I was about to ask you about. Let's hear it. Not only do I think that community is the future for all that we've talked about, but I think community is the best business model for people who don't have a huge audience. Okay. And here's why. Because, and I teach this kind of framework called your first 30 members. And for those who don't have a huge email list or a huge following or huge social media and It's like, what do I do to like really build out a way for me to have business online? It's like, what I feel like I have to do is I have to go like post on social media a hundred times a week and try to build a following and build an audience. And that's really hard for a lot of people. But in community, what I think is super interesting is 30 people could build you a business that is substantial, like is substantial foundation. So imagine the average network. at Mighty Networks is $49 a month. If I have 30 people inside of that network, I think the math comes out to something about$17,000 a year. So if I can find 30 people, I follow this framework and I find 30 people in my network, I built something from zero to $17,000 without needing to have 300 purchases or 3000 purchases. And $17,000 really kind of gives you the momentum and framework and foundation of something really key. So if you follow this framework, you have to have 30 people say yes to this framework, get on board at that $49 a month price point, and now you've got something of substance right away. You don't have to build an email list. And what I really recommend people doing is like, you can really start with your personal network in building this out. Now, a lot of people will be like, I don't have personal network. And I like to say, pull up your phone. Alex, I'd be curious for you to this with your phone nearby. Pull up your phone, open up your contacts list, go to the very bottom of it. at the very bottom it will tell you how many contacts are in your phone. Like I have 1400 people on my phone. It's like, do I think of that 1400 people and maybe you have 300 or 400, can I find 30 people in my phone contact list, in my LinkedIn connections, in my Facebook friends, in my Twitter followers, my Instagram followers? Can I find 30 people who want to experience the transformation as a part of my community? And it's like, you don't have to have a massive email list. or a massive social following to get started, just getting 30 people in the door is, in my opinion, it is the best and easiest way with just a handful of people inside of the network that you already have to build a business that is substantial right out of the gate, right? Now, most people aren't gonna be able to live on 17,000, but if you can get to 30 people, now you've created that kind of transformation where we remember the vegan people and the CrossFit people and the carnivore diet people. It's like if you're actually hosting that kind of transformation. then it builds this network effect where people are talking about the thing that you've built in a way that like, again, you don't have to build this massive, massive audience. Now, I know a lot of people here are podcasters and podcast guests. So the good news is like you already have an audience potentially, but for those who are just getting started, I think community is actually the best way to get started in online business as well. So not only is it the future of business, I think it's the easiest way because what I don't have to do, Alex, I don't have to create a course. I don't have to become an expert on something. I don't have to sit down. and record eight videos and then package it together and then sell this thing. It's like, you don't have to have any of that. You just follow the framework of community. You talk about the party that you're going to host, then you invite people into that. It doesn't require you becoming an expert in any area. It doesn't require you having fancy video equipment to record a course. It's like, you can just do it today. Like go through that framework today and then start texting people in your network to say, Hey, I'm hosting this thing. Do you want to come to it? And 30 yeses get you to a kind of business that can build momentum. in a way that's super interesting. not only do I think it's the future, I also think it's the easiest place to start. And I think that's why I'm so bought into this. It's not just like, it's not for the people who are making seven figures online, it's for people who like really want to start today. And you can start today building this community, just following the framework, that nine step framework. You could start today with your network in your phone or on your LinkedIn or on your Facebook friends and really get started in a way that's meaningful. What a great actual way to end this today. Daryl, I just want to say thank you again for your time. Thank you for paving the future of community learning and business, seems, as well. So, man, I just really appreciate the time today. So thank you for being here with us. Thanks for having me. For more episodes, please visit podmatch.com forward slash episodes. Thank you so much for listening.